(2006) Pat Thetic, a founding member of the Pittsburgh band Anti-Flag, took some time out of his very busy day to to talk with our own Music Guy. It was a fun interview and chat. The conversation ranged from musical influences through flood, through smoking, and more than a little politics. Pop Culture Madness and its staff may or may not agree with the views stated below. This was merely a conversation, so no hate e-mail from either side please. As usual, a few formalities take place and the interview begins...

Music Guy: It looks like you're pretty busy with interviews. Thanks for spending some time to talk to us.

Pat: Thank you. We are doing interviews, negotiating contracts, I'm at A-F records. We've got a lot of craziness going on here, which is always good, it's always better to have a lot of things happening than nothing happening.

MG: You're right, we've been running Pop Culture Madness in a home office, and we just moved into the "real" office in the past two months. It changes your outlook.

P: ... and that's why I don't like a home office. For me, it gives me a chance to say "I'm done working", because when your life is your hobby, you tend to want to do it all the time, which is not good for your relationships and yourself.

MG: That makes sense, I think you're 100% right.

P: Yeah.

MG: I have a few questions, I know you're age 19, and have been for a while.

P: Heh heh. That is true.

MG: I've been 23 for quite a while!

P: Hahaha I'm glad to hear that!

MG: I was around when the Clash were new, I know my "stuff"... I guess the "Old Stuff"... Man, I'm beyond old school now! I know you're very political...

P: Some days.

MG: In researching for this interview I did find the phrase "godless commies" come up several times.

P: Yes, Actually I just used that term this afternoon in another interview. I like the term "godless commies".

MG: I lean a little bit on the conservative side.

P: uh huh. (laughs)

MG: The thing I like about you guys, in Anti-Flag, you're not fans of George Bush, but you're not a fan of his policies, you don't say "whatever GB says must be wrong". You disagree philosophically, and I can appreciate that. Your songs are well thought out, based on your principles. Name calling isn't your first priority.

P: Correct. I think that that is one of the things that we try to do. Not to be on a high horse, but I think that the activism and the music that we create is trying to achieve a goal and just saying somebody's bad is not achieving the goal. We're trying to get messages and ideas out, show how people can take action and why we feel the way we do. These are actions that we take and that you might be interested in too. Sometimes it's much easier and much more fun to say "that dude is a horrible guy" and leave it at that. We do try to back up what we say with facts and ideas.

MG: I appreciate that. There are a lot of bands that I wouldn't waste my time interviewing. They're not well read, they don't think about what they are saying, they're just going with the flow of the people around them. You guys don't, and I admire and respect that.

P: Thank You.

MG: You make the record companies come to you, even the fans.

P: We try.

MG: A lot of "left wing" people kind of whine, you guys make things happen for yourselves. You're all pretty straight edge...

P: Yes! We find that that's a better way for us to live and get through our lives.

MG: Although not users, based on what I'm reading, you're against criminalization of drugs?

P: We're against drug laws that criminalize addiction for sure. I think that addiction is a medical condition, the real problem with drug use are in the laws and the criminalization of the use.

MG: How do you feel about smoking and big tobacco?

P: I think that the tobacco companies are some of the most evil companies in the entire world. I think that they are selling addiction to people and actively trying to make addicts and I think that is horrible. I'm hoping we can get into a paradigm shift of people realizing that... Many of the smokers that I talk to say that it's their fault that they smoke. I think that is completely the wrong way of seeing it. These companies are marketing and manipulating people to smoke, and then once they do start smoking, they make them want to smoke more and create more of a demand for their product. Cigarette companies get off easy in the U.S. They are actually trying to think up ways to make their product more addictive, or at least were, I don't know if they still are now. That's my high horse on cigarettes!

MG: It's easy to quit smoking. I know people who have quit many times. But that's part of my problem with drugs. If they become easy to get, the same addictions are there. The companies that end up legally making them just become the "new" tobacco companies.

P: True, but you don't have the war on drugs. You don't have the gang warfare on the streets over selling rights, which has become the true capitalism of the inner cities. If there is an easy and affordable way for junkies to get get their substances so they don't have to break into my house to steal my television or whatever to sell to buy their drugs, that takes that whole element out of the equation. It's tragic that some people might have this problem, but it's not going to be a detriment to our society.

MG: You've been making music for quite a while. You were kind of , in my view, the second wave of real punk, and kind of headlining that.

P: We've been making music over twelve years now. I don't know that I'd consider myself to be a real punk but I believe that in the mid-90s there was a definite resurgence of bands who were really committed to ideals of DIY and making thing happen for themselves.

MG: I was a big fan of the Clash and the Dead Kennedys. Back in the day, I saw the Clash film/documentary, Rude Boy. Have you seen it?

P: No, I haven't seen it. I have heard a lot about it and seen parts of it, but never saw the whole thing.

MG: For me, I was surprised when watching the interviews. They weren't the angry guys I thought they were.

P & MG: hah haha

P: I think that a lot of people have a similar perception of us in that they think that we are just these political robots that just talk about how bad George Bush is all time. But we actually have lives and other things that we like to do. Obviously, politics and ideas and beliefs are a big part of our lives, but not the only part. We're pretty funny people, if I may say so myself. I don't know that other people would think that, but I think we're interesting and funny. Haha.

MG: In mainstream music, what kind of influences have you had? Most of what I've seen in your bio was a bit on the fringe side.

P: Would Billy Idol be considered mainstream? Generation X (his band) was great. "Mony Mony" was a little sketchy, I always thought that the Police were an amazing band. Billy Bragg is mainstream in the UK. I have a great love for him. Led Zeppelin. We grew up in Pittsburgh were the radio format has been the same since about 1973. They haven't played very much different since then.

MG: The big rock stations in Philly, it's more Grateful Dead, which I don't mind, except for the "live" 23 minute guitar ramblings.

P: Yeah the rock jams that they did. Pittsburgh wasn't cool enough to get the Grateful Dead. We got Lynyrd Skynyrd, Zep, Boston and that's all we ever got. I grew up on that stuff, for better or for worse, I until I realized that there was a whole world of alternative music and alternative art and culture out there.

MG: Politically, under the term "Punk" there are three categories and they are pretty diverse. Left Wing, Libertarian, and even a splintered Right Wing. You guys almost seem Libertarian...

P: I have to say my father is very right wing conservative, but the interesting thing about the Right Wing and the Left Wing when you go into the Libertarian world is that they sort of come back around to each other, and it sort of makes a circle rather than continuous lines. I think there are some Libertarian beliefs in there. The difference between my personal views and Libertarian views is that I don't automatically think that the individual should have the right to do whatever they want. The individual has some responsibility to the society and the culture around them. I think that Libertarians tend to believe that the individual is the only thing that's important.

MG: I think that stops a lot of people, from both sides, from being Libertarian. You mentioned your dad, do you have any friends in the business or outside who are conservative?

P: My family is conservative. Of course, our accountant is conservative. They're great guys. Our office got flooded last year and the people who were there to help us out were our accountants. Their offices are up above ours. You think truly very conservative guys picking up T-shirts that say "George Bush is the Enemy," and things like that... you realize that people are good people, and bad people are bad people, your political views make for interesting conversation sometimes, but, if you're a truly good person that doesn't really matter. We were very happy to have them as friends and neighbors. An interesting note, we have a sticker in our toilet, which is a picture of George Bush, and their toilet was not working, they were free to use ours, but they commented that they "couldn't go to the bathroom in your toilet because I won't go on George Bush's face". hehehe I was like, yeah, sorry it's our toilet.

MG: You have a voice here in America, you can get your message out. In other countries, where they don't have any say, Middle East, Middle Africa... Is it frustrating for you to know what's going on, in these places where nobody has any say, and no one can or is doing anything to help them?

P: I hear you, and that's an interesting point. I'm not as aware of those things, they're not in front of us. But I would argue that we think that we have a voice and we think that we can get ideas out but we're really up against a behemoth that is the media, the commercial mainstream media, that just squashes a lot of what we say. We get out like a millionth of one percent of what they are able to indoctrinate us with every day. I don't know whether we can really get ideas out, sure I'm able to get them out, but I think that, in relation to the messages in the media that we're getting every day, are views are so small... Specifically, with the Bush Regime and their disinformation campaign, and Clinton did this also, creating news stories that seem to be true, but are really just creations of the administrations. We're not getting real access to information and truth. I wonder that we're that much different than people in North Korea, who don't have a voice. Or people in central Africa and the Sudan. I hear what you are saying, but I don't know whether I agree completely.

MG: I didn't mean it as a statement, I genuinely meant it as a question. Up until 200 years ago, even the "civilized" people mainly thought about that one meal they hoped to eat that day. Since then, communication has gotten better, distribution of goods vastly improved, but back then there wasn't much of a voice.

P: That's the American Myth though, that we are free and have the right to say what we want to say. It's a great story, and as a band we believe in that completely, we are completely indoctrinated by the American Myth because why else would we be talking about these things, other that we think that it should be real. The reality is, in many situations, once you start to discuss the American Dream, then you realize the the really is actually just a myth. We as a band, and as a people believe that there can be something better and we are continually trying to achieve that American Dream, where everybody has a voice and we're all free to express ourselves in the say that we want to.

MG: I assuming, and tell me if I'm wrong, that you agree with the ideals of the constitution, you you think that it has been usurped by whoever is sitting in that big chair...

P: For sure! I think it's not just the person in the Big Chair, but it has been usurped by people with wealth and power which it always has been. The older I get, the more I see the world, I realize that it doesn't matter whether its a Republican or Democrat, it's about power, the people who have power and the people who don't. The people who have power are doing everything they can to maintain it. It doesn't matter about a Republican this month, or a Democrat next month, their main goal is to maintain their own power.

MG: Sad, but true. To many people the American flag represents that constitutional ideal. Abbie Hoffman got arrested for wearing an American flag shirt, technically, my paper plates at the Fourth of July party are desecrating the flag.

P: Exactly. The woman in the American flag bikini is desecrating the flag.

MG: So what is the flag to you? What does it represent, or what does any flag represent?

P: For me, the flag represents... the way it's used in the US, and in other places around the world, "I am an American, and you are a Canadian, and you are Mexican, therefore, you can be treated differently than I can. If you live above that parallel line, you are Canadian, therefore you are different than me. I think that that is a fundamental problem with the way we see people. It can be the exact same person on one side of the border or on the other side, but you are treated differently, you have different rights, different expectations of what you can achieve. That is one aspect of what it represents...
The other aspect is as a policy tool to get young men and women to go off and fight and die for empire, for religion of the country. People say "We need to fight this war", you have to do it because we're waving this flag. I think that doesn't make any sense. Just because you proverbially wrap yourself in the flag, it doesn't mean that I have to accept everything that you say. And if I disagree with you, then I'm some type of traitor or bad person. Those are the two ways that I think that the flag is used that are negative ways.

MG: I know that on your album covers the American Flag is upside down, meaning distressed.

P: Exactly. That's the other thing is that it is just a distress call.

MG: You are still promoting the American ideal, you're not painting the flag black, you are saying, "hey, this is in trouble". That's how it came across to me.

P: For sure.

MG: Do you feel that every country is equal?

P: I don't think that every country is equal, but I think that every person should have human rights and a chance at a meal and a place to sleep and things like that. I don't think that those are...

MG: Unjust demands?

P: Yes. I don't think that the people in power in North Korea or Syria or Great Britain have very much in common with me. But the guy who is trying to make a living in North Korea, Syria or Great Britain, trying to feed his family and a place to sleep, I think I have a lot in common with.

MG: I like to think most people feel that way.

P: I don't. I think that's the problem. People wrap themselves in the flag and they say "Iraqi people are bad and they need to be destroyed" or the North Koreans or Iranians are bad. It's not just the Americans who are doing it. The Iranians are doing the exact same thing. It's facilitated by religion or the flag that they put over your head or whatever. It's just a route to a lot of "messed up things " (spell?).

MG: Getting back to the "godless commies". You don't strike me as a real communist. There seems to be some capitalism in you...

P: I would love to be a communist. I think that we, in our business dealings, with the people around us, with the people we deal with in the record company, we try to distribute wealth, to have a non-hierarchial structure. However, I'm very aware that we live in a capitalistic society, and I'm completely behind trying to bring that capitalism down, but until we do that, we have to work within the structure of the society that we're in.

MG: For that "Utopian" type of thing, I think a lot of hearts would have to change, and I'm not sure the human condition would allow that. On the other hand, the idea should be brought up, and that's part of what you do.

P: Exactly. I grew up in an era were communists were seen as the worst scum of the Earth, but the more you realize what the word "communism" actually means, you're like why are these people bad? Obviously, the institutionalized communism of the Soviet Union is probably not good. The idea of a communist who redistributes the wealth and making sure all of the people in the culture or the group are taken care of is an amazing thing, and something that we should strive for.

MG: Regarding the redistribution of wealth, I lean the other way, I do believe that if you have, it's your obligation to give, but on the other hand, I don't think it is your right to take away what I have earned.

P: I hear that. The only problem that I would have with that, my disagreement is that power and wealth never really want to give their wealth up. In a perfect world, if people were willing to give up their wealth and power for the betterment of all. That's great. But in the reality of people not willing to do that, I think that some point, the culture has to say "You are a parasite on the rest of us by extracting too much wealth and power. You need to redistribute that.

MG: How do you feel about people like Bill Gates? He does donate, probably more than anyone else on the planet.

P: Sure. I grew up in a world were I went to Carnegie Library, which was funded by Big Steel in Pittsburgh, but the problem is, and Bill gates did this also, he squashed all of the competition around him and made it impractical or impossible for anybody else to compete. NOW, he's giving money, and that's great that he's doing that, however, there could be much more wealth and varied distribution of that wealth had he not been such a cutthroat and aggressive businessman, and he possibly cheated his way up to making that type of wealth.

MG: My viewpoint is different, yet I'm seeing the same thing you are. APPLE was the personal computer, they said you have to buy from us to do this or do that. They didn't allow for other software or hardware companies. Gates said, I have this operating system, which I agree he pretty much took from Apple, but he said I'll give you this, and you give me a "nickel" for every one you sell. Or a "quarter" for every one you sell... In my view it was a fairer and more diverse way of offering his and other people's product. It did make him the "standard" and all that...

P: I'm less a computer law expert than a political scientist, but the fact they are trying to monopolize the use of Internet Explorer by binding it into their operating system was proven to be a monopoly, and they should have to break that up or whatever.

MG: Then again, I did like the phone company better when they were a monopoly.

P: You DID like them? You thought they worked better when they were a monopoly?

MG: As opposed to now, I spend so much time answering the phone and saying "no" to so many phone companies!

P: That is true. However, I do think...

MG: I do really think that competition is the best thing in the world.

P: I think choice is the best thing.

MG: How do you feel about NAFTA?

P: I am personally affected by NAFTA. Part of being a rock band in the mid-90s is to manufacture T-shirts. One of the things we had a lot of trouble doing. Looking at how T-shirts are being made, we didn't want to support companies who are making T-shirts in Pakistan or Indonesia and exploiting people. We started to look around for other T-shirt manufacturers, made in the States, were made in a fair worker's rights kind of way. After NAFTA, many T-shirts were being manufactured in Mexico, made under unfair conditions.

(About this time the tape had to be turned over, and this part of the conversation was not recorded. We both basically agreed that it was a quandry that the "slave labor" wages in China, as viewed by us, was taken by many Chinese workers as great pay.)

MG: How about the current UAE ports deal?

P: I think that the issue of the ports is misdirected. I think the issue is whether private companies should own something as important to the sovereignty of the American government and the American people. It doesn't matter whether GE owns the ports or whether P&O or UAE owns the ports. The question is whether anyone should own something that is so integral to the American economy and security and all the other things that go through those ports.

MG: Question about abortion. A two part question.

P: Awww, bringing all of them here!

MG: A woman's right to choose?

P: It is definitely a woman's right to choose. Obviously, nobody wants to have an abortion. Abortion is a last resort thing. However, there should never be a question about whether a woman should have access to healthcare, reproductive care and access to abortion. Because if you don't have those things then a woman becomes a baby factory, and she has no control over her own body, and that is the ultimate, worst position for any person to be in. To have some nine people in Washington, DC decide whether you are allowed to have control of your own body and reproductive system.

MG: I'm not sure how you'll answer this... so, do you believe that some, or even many on the other side of the issue are people of goodwill, that just believe that a baby is involved?

P: Sure, I think its the same thing as... There are obviously the crazy people who are holding up bloody babies, and there are those who say you're a white person, you shouldn't have an abortion, or an African-American you SHOULD have an abortion, that type of thing is completely unacceptable. The abortion issue is an issue that should not be part of the discussion in Washington. It's a discussion between the individual people involved and their families. The Federal Government should be staying out of the discussion. I talk to people in other countries, and they ask why abortion is such a big issue in the US... I that is a valid question.

MG: This is what makes politics kind of fun. I think a third of the US is pretty liberal, a third is conservative, and the final third just goes with the flow, whoever speaks loudest on one side or the other gets their agenda done, until the next election.

P: That may be true.

MG: Ready for some more questions? Tell me about the album!

P: It'll rock your ass off! It's a great record. I'm proud of it. I think have some interesting ideas that we talk about, the musical performances are better than we've ever been able to create on record before. I'm really excited about it. We have some songs you can get on our website (anti-flag.com).

MG: Any television influences? Anything that effected the way you think, what you enjoyed when you were younger?

P: I was a great fan of Mister Roger's Neighborhood. He was from Pittsburgh and I was actually able to work with him on a couple of his later seasons before he passed away. I did some interning and actually got paid for a couple of jobs for Mister Rogers. This will be an interesting anecdote, we were reading over a script for one of the new episodes coming up, and he knew I was in the band and we talked about it, and he said "If I wasn't so old, I would make a new character and we could name it 'Auntie Flag', a new puppet, but I'm too old at this point". I think that was an amazing comment, amazingly flattering, because people think that Mister Rogers was a creepy dude, but he was an amazing, kind, warm, as great of a guy as he was on the show. That's who he was in real life.

MG: I remember I mocked him like everyone else, but he earned my respect when the first Gulf war happened and he had a little special, and just talked to kids, and told them not to worry or whatever... Nobody else could have done that!

P: He was a caring guy. I've always been impressed by him and after meeting him and being able to be around him, I was infinitely more impressed by him. A really cool guy. I liked Bill Nye the Science Guy, Saturday Night Live was a big influence on us.

MG: Two more questions... Another two parter... You're stuck on a desert island. Who would you rather be with? Maryanne or Ginger?

P: Maryanne

MG: You're still on the same island, but now it's between Maryanne or Jeannie from I Dream Of Jeannie?

P: Jeannie. She could take me off the desert island.

MG: Thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to me.

P: I appreciate the questions, they were very interesting and thought provoking!